decline of play on grass

[asdettin]

rain,

here are a few facts proving my point:

1) the only player in the last two years to beat roddick on grass is federer

2) on grass in the last two years he has beaten: grosjean twice, hewitt, srichaphan twice, rusedski twice, and agassi.

3) in the last two years henman's only wins of any stature on grass are over nalbandian and the scud.

4) henman has zero career titles on grass

I REST MY CASE.

lisa,

why don't you start paying attention to the conversation. i never said roddick was second best solely on his final showing this year. look at the facts i have listed above. the schalken point is just a continual deviation from the ORIGINAL point which i am trying to get people to respond to.

[Lisa]

asdettin

I think you ought to just take a moment and re-evaluate your attitude.
Everyone here is friendly and likes to have a nice discussion. You are being a little rude. Please join in in a friendly, non-agressive way and I'm sure you will make some good chat-friends.
Thank you

[RainerShuttle]

Ok listen:

1) I am not saying you are wrong and that I am necessarily right, I am expressing what is known as OPINION and in that I am saying that I think Henman is a better grass court player. Whether you choose to agree with my opnion or not I couldn't give a rats ass - you asked who is a better grass court player and I responded with my thoughts. You can't force your opinion on me so stop trying to make out like you are right and the rest of us are wrong.

2) Your statement that Henman has won no grass court events is factually incorrect.

I totally agree with Lisa, you seem far too determined to prove that your are right and the rest of us are wrong when the simple fact of the matter is we both think differently. Maybe you should try learning some manners and losing the rudeness and arrogance. ;D

[asdettin]

rain,

so what's wrong with a friendly debate? i think you are being a little over sensitive.

if i thought nicolaus massu was the best grass court player ever, how would you respond? surely you would question my point of view yes.

maybe i am a little combative, but when i present facts, you refuse to discuss them. also, name the ATP event on grass that henman won.

to me debating is enjoyable, maybe not to you, so i am sorry.

[RainerShuttle]

Over-sensitive? Not really. I felt the way you spoke to people came across as rude, especially to Lisa telling her she should start paying attention to the conversation.

I have no problem with argument or debate but the way you came across as if you were right and I had to be wrong seemed selfish and arrogant. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with my opinion and think that Roddick is the second best grass courter but remarking that I "must be joking" when giving my opinion and that you "rest your case" when providing so-called evidence that you are right and I am wrong comes across as you thinking that your opinion is right and I am completely wrong.

Also, I fail to see where I have refused to discuss your facts. I accept that Roddick has won Queens for two straight years and done well at Wimbledon but, as strange as this may sound to you, I wouldn't rate him as the second best player on grass. If someone like Nalbandiamn or Hewitt or Philippoussis had the same draw as Roddick, they would have done equally as well. If Roddick had been forced to play Federer in the quarters like Hewitt had to he would have lost then. Seriously, who did Roddick beat at Wimbledon with any pedigree? He could have lost the first two sets to Schalken and was also lucky against Ancic, who played much better against Henman than against Roddick. Kudos to A-Rod though for beating the mighty Jimmy Wong, Alexander Peya and Alexander Popp. If he'd had the same draw as Lleyton Hewitt, would he really have reached the final?

Anyway, I wasn't really bothered by your argument at all, it didn't affect me or make me more sensitive as you might think - disagree with me all you want. I was simply saying that I thought you could be more receptive of others opinions before totally shooting them down.

Your original point then: Players like Roddick have been able to do so well on grass lately due to their power. Simply put, if someone cracks the ball at 149 mph on the fastest surface, you arent going to return it all that well. This increase in power can be put down basically to the lighter rackets, allowing more power with less effort from the player.

[asdettin]

rain,

not to beat a dead horse, but please tell me which of the facts i have listed are not correct. check out henman's carreer statistics, he has zero ATP grass court titles.

also, you are correct, if roddick had hewitt's draw he would not have made the final because the federer express would have kicked his ass in the quarters. but since he has beaten everyone else put in front of him on grass i would assume that next to federer he is second best. lisa completely misrepresented my point of view, and i got a little urked... sorry.

also rain, i will be very receptive if you back up your arguments with facts. anyway, give some reasons why you think henman is better on grass than roddick.

[RainerShuttle]

I'm not saying your facts aren't correct because they clearly are but facts don't tell the full story. You need more than just ability to win matches at Grand Slam level. I know he has beaten Hewitt and Agassi amongst others on grass but, I know this is an if and a but, he genuinely could have lost those matches. In 10 matches on grass against Hewitt, I'd favour Hewitt to win more. After all, he has won Wimbledon, as has Agassi. Yes neither of them played Federer when winning it but they both beat players who I'd class as being better on grass than Roddick, Henman and Ivanisevcic included. At the end of the day it all comes down to preference and personal opinion. My personal opinion is that Henman has a better grass court game and is thus a better grass court player than Roddick due to his superior volleying and net play. Henman can beat Roddick on hard courts so he can certainly beat him on grass - he seemingly has no problem despatching the power players on grass, note his highly impressive display against Scud this year and Ivanisevic a few years ago until nerves got the better of him. Stick Henman in a one-off match on grass against anyone in the world and he'd beat them, with the possible exception of Federer though I still expect that to be a very close 5 set match.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. Sure he hasn't won the titles that Roddick has but I'm a firm believer that Henman's ALL ROUND grass court play is a gear above Roddick's.

Also if Roddick had Hewitt's draw at Wimbledon, I'd have been impressed if he even reached Federer due to the presence of former champ Ivanisewvic and the very under-rated Moya.

[gastonwowdio]

ok so i haven't read the whole thing but who ever the anti henman one is i support and salute you. and laury how can you even imagine that gaston isn't the best player on clay? anything else is just unthinkable. i'm not naive i'm just plain old biased which is something that seems to be lacking here.
i know that were supposed to offer balanced opinions but i can't do that GASTON RULES even on grass! you see i know thats ludicrous but i say it because i'm biased and we all need to be biased in our lives on occasion and this is my occasion

[gastonwowdio]

ok just read the last bit. theres sparks a flyin between schuttle and asdettin (sorry if thats wrong) a good clean fight, its what debates are all about.

have to say though, although mr schuttle's arguments are well thought out, and better backed up the other dudes ARE easier to read and hence in my book are winning. however, if schuttle put bigger spaces between the paragraphs he would go up in my estimation.

there. this meaningless post is how to diffuse an argument. GASTON RULES

[RainerShuttle]

"gastonwowdio", if that is your real name, just to clarify, I ain't pro-Henman by any means - you know wheere my piorities lie.

[gastonwowdio]

what are you saying 'if that's you're real name' i hardly believe your parents named you after the prince of monaco and a mode of transport.

And yes, i do assume your priorities lie with schuttler but all i'm saying is this forum needs a bit of bias cos if u werent called rainer schuttle no one would know who u were championing. the only thing you ever said even remotely complimentary to rainer where when you said he wasn't balding. bring on the bias